"Iraq has made so big strides, so much progress in the last couple of years that it is changing. And this is why I think it is a great place for companies to actually come and be active in,” Christiane Hohmann told Rudaw on the sidelines of the Iraq Development Platform conference in Baghdad.
She stressed that there are still significant reforms to banking and regulation needed for Iraq to fully utilize its investment potential.
The following is the transcript of the interview with Christiane Hohmann:
Rudaw: Welcome to Rudaw. I am glad to have you.
Christiane Hohmann: Thank you so much for having me.
Thank you a lot. I was listening to you. You said that Iraq now is a developing country with enormous opportunities, but challenges too, we all agree on that. From your perspective, what's the main challenge?
I think the challenges that internationally to attract also investment, because this economic diversification is the core challenge for Iraq. So how do you attract international investment that brings not only know-how but also jobs and production into the country? That is the reputation of the country outside. We need to change the stereotypical perception of Iraq that hasn't yet been updated in people's minds. And that's the work we are actually in.
So it's a marketing and outreach campaign?
Not only, it's also realities. Because if you talk about ease of doing business, there are elements that need to be done. You have banking reforms that need to be done, the regulatory framework, etc. So these things still need work, but at the same time, Iraq has made so big strides, so much progress in the last couple of years that it is changing. And this is why I think it is a great place for companies to actually come and be active in.
Is it still hard for you to convince, for example, German businessmen to come and invest in Iraq?
It's both. I mean, we have some who have been present for long who also are very known to the region, so that it's easier for them. Sometimes it's just cultural issues because business is done slightly differently than it is done back in Western Europe. So that is one of the elements to attract then the second layer, sort of to create the jobs, to create the investment, to stay the sustainability. I think that's the challenge we are facing now. And that's what we're working on. And we do have the interest and we're working on that.
And from the Iraqi government side, I think a big part of this is on the Iraqi government to make the modification and the change that is needed on the ground. Do you see a plan?
I do. I do. And we are in extremely close contact. We are in contact with the economic advisors of the Prime Minister. And we are able to find open doors and to say which frameworks are the most hindering ones. You know, saying intellectual property was a huge issue a year ago. Now we have draft legislation in parliament. So we also see that what we bring in as our experiences, our sort of feedback from companies is being heard, is being also tackled.
So regarding investment, what's the size of German investment in Iraq now?
We are going into the billions. So we have on the one hand side a lot of work is being done in the energy area from working in transformer stations, the electricity grid itself needs to be rehabilitated, needs to be enlarged, because if you develop the economy, you need to transmit more electricity you have to reduce the loss in the system, but it's also about building power stations here in the country to help Iraq to bridge the production gap in the need between the need, but we also have production being done. ID cards are produced by a German company in a joint venture with the Iraqi government. So there are lots of very practical things happening, medications being produced by a German company in Iraq for the Iraqi market, to give you just a few examples.
To be honest, Christine, you are not the only diplomat and ambassador that I meet. They are, compared to years ago, are more optimistic about Iraq and the future of Iraq. What makes you, I mean reality on the ground, what gives you that sense of optimism?
If you look into the last four years, so if we just take the short term, between the last elections and now, after the elections, there was upheaval. It took a while to have a government. But in between now and the current prime minister, we've had a fairly stable political environment. We have a budget, which is very important for also companies when they see that a country has a real regular budget and not just individual payments. It's the stability. It's the sustainability. They want to have an environment where they have a certain predictability. And that has increased massively. Yes, of course, the challenges remain, and it's still out there. So we have the hope that after the upcoming elections in autumn this year, that it's faster in the formation of a government, that we do not have public unrest afterwards. These are all factors that will influence the interests and also the coming of investors.
Regarding the challenges you mentioned, Iraq, this is not a secret. Even the prime minister talked about that, Considering security, considering the climate change, diversifying the economy, transition to renewable power, these are all big challenges in Iraq. How do you, as Germany, how do you support the Iraqi government and Iraq in general in these fields?
The iraqi government meets with the German government regularly and we actually talk about where we can best assist the country and their energy and also diversification in the energy area is one of the big issues. And it goes from consultancy, just how do you set this up, how do you, for instance, work on the electricity grid for the country to make sure that you have solutions for the north, for the center, for the south, to make sure that you can evenly distribute it. But the same is, and we talked about this just in the panel, how do you develop a public service of providing electricity for which the state also gets paid by the users? That is the same. We start with smart meters, but how do you do it? Is there a social sort of leveling for those who have more who have to pay the full price others get a reduced price or how do you deal with industries, but it goes all the way to the investment in building flared gas power stations to use the flared gas that you have in the oil production currently, that's not being used and that can be used to produce electricity. So these are all the elements from private business but also what can government to government corporation do.
Regarding migration, this is one of the big topics between European Union and countries, including Iraq. And I think also this is not a secret that migration is targeting Germany in the first place in the European Union. There is now a deal between the Iraqi government. I was talking a few months ago with the Iraqi ambassador, Dr. Luqman Fayli, to Germany, and he mentioned the deal. It's an agreement about this. How that agreement is going on? regarding migration. How do you work with the Iraqi government? There's two phases. One of the phases is about returning Iraqis who have no right to stay in Germany. How cooperative is the Iraqi government with Germany regarding this problem?
This is a very confidential kind of setting that we work in because that's the only setting in which it can actually work. What is very important for us and is the other side of the coin that for us is the more important one. We have a lack of labor in Germany. So actually there's the possibility to do labor migration towards Germany to work in Germany. So it's those who don't have a right to continue staying have to return home. The vast majority travel on their own. So they just get on a plane. And the other one is also that we are also actively seeking Iraqis with certain specifications and qualifications to come to Germany and to work legally on the German labor market.
Yeah, I know that. I was talking to the German consul in Erbil and he mentioned that and even though there's a new law a few years ago changed in Germany, it's much easier to travel and migrate to Germany but you have to have some skills but yet migration is a problem. Do you have any programs directed to youth in Iraq at least to like job creation, give them hope to stay here or awareness about the danger of human trafficking?
We have both. One is, you know, don't imagine that this is an easy road out. The other one I think is one that you have to approach a bit more fundamentally, which is to create the next level of education, which is vocational training. Not everybody goes to university after they've graduated from school. So what is in between? And that is exactly where also the investors come in because the investors need skilled labor. So we are helping the country to build up vocational training schemes. What does a curriculum look like? What do the schools look like? What are the teachers? And then also to link this up from theory to the practical experience in the company. Because if you become a welder, it's nice to read the textbook and to see this in the classroom, but you also have to practice, because we hope that the bridge that you will weld later will hold. So it's this mix of professional experience and theoretical knowledge to link it up to create this intermediary level in the educational system here in iraq not only because we think it's something very good to do, but this is a layer of workers and labor force that needs to be created more substantially here in Iraq itself for the Iraqi economy.
So you work with the government about this. Your support, is it only by advising or there is a budget for it too, financial support?
It’s both. Sometimes the advice actually is paid by the German government and not by the Iraqi government. But it is also trained trainers, trained teachers. So we provide also programs to do that. And it's of course also creating the links to the companies to make sure that the companies have a say in that as well. So to involve the private sector from day one, because they will be the backbone of the economy of all of Iraq.
Christine, I personally know many people, youth, very youth, in Iraq, also in the Kurdistan region. When they talk, they say, ah, we have no hope. We may, if we have a chance, we will migrate to Germany illegally. But they are not pretty much aware about the danger and they might be sent back now. What's your message to them?
The message, it's not worth it. It's not worth it. There are legal ways to doing that and look into that. But on the other end, wouldn't it be also a fantastic thing to be part of the future of Iraq? and to creating opportunities here. This country is boosting. This country is developing. Yes, not everything is sorted out. That's normal. We Germans tend to complain about everything in Germany. But it's being part of a process that actually you are the ones who create the future of this country. That should be one of the goals.
About the legal ways, may you elaborate on that? How does it work? How can people follow that abroad and if they have an idea or hope to travel to Germany, legally how can they do it?
So I give you the short version because everything is available on our own website so you can go through that and there are lots of links to how to make it in Germany and what you need etc.
So they can Google it?
They can Google it. It's very easy to find out. But the point is, there are certain professional groups that are being looked after, but you can also go for job seeking. You can go to have actually training in Germany. So all of these things are possibilities. And the other point is, If you're employed, for instance, by a company here, often these companies send their staff for some training also to Germany. Especially when you work for a German company, they want you to get to know their headquarters and how they work in the bigger company. So all of these possibilities are available.
So it takes a Google search to find all the ways.
It takes a little work to work through the internet. This miraculous thing, the internet has a lot of information about this. On the specifics, what do you have to present, what are the qualifications that you need to have, etc. to make it legally.
And they can do it through the embassy?
They can do it through the embassy webpage and the consulate, of course.
Do you have such applications?
We do.
You do?
Yes. Not yet in masses, not yet hundreds of them, but we do have them.
But you do process this kind of...?
Of course we do.
Which, if it's not confidential, who are those Iraqis who want to migrate legally to, like, are we talking about engineers, are we talking about doctors, are we talking about teachers?
No, it's the whole range. It's the whole range. There's no specific group where I could say it's only those. It's a whole range from vocational training all the way to university degree. So there is no specifics you can make out.
Interesting. About migration, like when you work on this issue in Iraq, I think you need kind of an idea, an outlook or a data about where this comes from. Is it from the south of Iraq so you can target it? Is it from the Kurdistan Region that people migrate more to Germany? Do you have any idea about that?
We don't do that kind of screening because it's the nationality that's actually screened, not which part of the country you come from. So I cannot give you the percentages of which part of Iraq people come from. But I can also tell you that the numbers from Iraq have drastically reduced. So the number of Iraqi people arriving in Germany and applying for asylum or trying to stay has gone down massively.
Security-wise, there's a lot going on in this region. What's happening in Syria is a big issue now, big news. The German Federal Foreign Minister was in Germany. I personally also interviewed Mr. Tobias Lindner a few days ago. He was in Syria too, he went to Turkey and he was in the Kurdistan region of Iraq and the whole concern was about Syria and also Iraq because if something happens in Syria and also the Iraqi officials now are saying that they are really concerned about the future of Syria. But let's talk about ISIS [Islamic State], as Germany is part of the international coalition. Do you think that ISIS is still a threat to Iraq?
I think the major battle against ISIS, as we saw it between 2014 and 2017, that is over. However, we still have individual pockets. And this is where we highly appreciate also the activities of the Iraqi government to actually eradicate those pockets of ISIS. Because I think nobody in the region and in this country wishes them to come back and to create the same issues for the security and the existence of the country Iraq again as they did in 2014. So massive strides and progress has been done in making sure that the security forces of Iraq are able to actually resist and fight the challenges that are still there.
Ending the coalition by the Iraqi government, I mean the mission. Do you think it's the right time to do such a step?
I think this is something that is part of the talks between the United States and the iraqi government i think this is where the debate is happening we are happy to be a member of the coalition but these debates as you know also the previous agreements were first and foremost negotiated between the US and Iraq and i think It is the Iraqi government that invited the mission in, and it's for the Iraqi government to indicate it's over, we are done, we have achieved what we wanted to achieve. So this is something not for me to reply to.
Iraq is actually stepping towards ending the mission is trying to make bilateral agreements with each country, for example, with the UK, with America. Is that happening with Germany too?
It is happening too with us. Because if we are, the point is very important. if the request and the wish is, there we are happy to assist. So we are not occupying forces. We are here upon the invitation of the Iraqi government and this is how also the German troops are here present in Iraq. And as long as we are needed and requested to assist, we are willing to provide this assistance. And that was very clearly the message also of the German Minister of Defense, who was here in December actually talking to the government. If you want our help, we are happy to provide it and according to what you need. So that's a decision for the Iraqi government, in a way.
Yeah. And one suggest, I think it was back in November, they renewed the mandate for the German troops to stay for another year in Iraq. Syria, how concerning is that for, I mean, Western countries in Iraq? I'm sure you meet with the other ambassadors, too. How do you monitor that?
I think it's similar to what you've just mentioned. I mean, Syria is not a case in itself, but everything is interconnected. So as the Iraqi government of course is looking at Syria very carefully because they know there's a risk of a spillover we also see of course this as a risk to create more insecurity in the region and the region is challenged in lots of ways. So we actually have already staff that has visited Damascus. We are looking into how we can reinsert and bring back our diplomatic presence to work because we're all curious and we all have an interest for this process of transition from the [Bashar al-]Assad regime to a democratic Syria to succeed. Many more challenges than Iraq is facing are facing Syria. So this is still very early days. So we are not only observing but we are also talking to the leading elites now in Damascus.
Yeah, too many things happened in just a few months in the Middle East. I think things like that, it takes years back in Europe to change. Actually, my talk with Mr. Lindner was a very honest talk. He says that he's really concerned about everything in Syria, considering human rights, security, women's rights. Personally, what's your perspective? Are you concerned?
I think exactly the same. It's a question of the security. How is this country going to move ahead? Now you have the individual factions that have taken over, but is this going to lead to a stable government? How are the different parts of the country going to come together? We have a specific concern, of course, in northeast Syria, when we talk about al-Hol and the prisons, because we know that there are ardent IS fighters who are in these installations. So how is that going to pan out? So there are lots of factors that can be potential sources of super crises. It can go well, but it also can go very wrong. And this is exactly why everybody is vigilant and everybody is consuming the news coming out of Syria every single day. Because we will need to have an adaptation of our way we behave. We wish also for the people of Syria who've suffered enough over the decades that they are actually now embarking on a path that leads them to a peaceful, stable country where democracy can take foot. But that takes time as well. And in this transition time, lots of things are very challenging steps. And that's also for the responsibility of the current leaders, how to pan this out.
Christine my last question actually will be about something that i always get messages and just recent days I got three messages from people in the Kurdistan Region or Iraqi citizens asking about something specific, and they mentioned that if you please met, interviewed a German diplomat, consul or ambassador, ask this. It's about visa. I've got messages. I have no updates actually, but I'm just, this feedback that I'm giving you that somehow the visa process for Iraqis, Germany visa process have been more complicated. Can you give me any updates? They were mentioning Erbil. I don't know about Baghdad. that interview time was not available. What's happening? What's your response to that?
I think the challenge is specifically in Erbil. It's less prominent here. Both Erbil and we are noticing largely increasing numbers of people who want to apply for a visa. However, our capacities are limited. So we have actually not more staff to expand our working hours for the visa section, which also means the more applicants you have, the faster the appointments run out. This is why unfortunately in Erbil we are facing substantial waiting times for an appointment which then challenges of course everybody who wants to travel because you have to start planning so much earlier than you would have done a year, two years ago when the numbers were way lower. So that's a challenge that we are facing and we are trying to optimize to see what we can do. But unfortunately, and this is unfortunately also an experience I have from other countries, there is no quick fix for that. So I have to beg for the patience of those who need a visa appointment. We will not be able to accelerate this very quickly, but we are working on it and we are fully aware that this is an inconvenience.
So, you are advising them to apply as early as possible?
I can only suggest to look for the appointment way ahead of your travel because short-term is literally impossible because you won't get an appointment in time. So when you know a travel is upcoming, look into availabilities for appointments, just to make sure that you get your visa in time for the point of travel that you do have. So we are aware, we know it's an inconvenience, but we have to ask for your patience until we can solve it.
How many applications do you receive every month?
It goes into the thousands. Thousands, like? In a year. Yeah, in a year, of course. But the procedure as such to get a visa has not changed. It's simply because the numbers have gone up so much of applicants and we have the same human resources. We hadn't had any other sort of setup in the consulate. So that of course starts to overwhelm the system eventually.
Christiane Hohmann, thank you very much. Welcome to Rudaw.
My great pleasure.
Thank you so much.
