Germany favors extending the stay of German troops in Iraq, including in the Kurdistan Region, Max Lucks, a member of the German parliament, told Rudaw in an interview on Tuesday. The MP adds that the question that remains is if the troops can stay in Iraq due to “the negotiations between Baghdad and the US,” referring to talks between Iraq and the US on ending the role of the international coalition against the Islamic State (ISIS).
The MP argued that many of the Yazidis are children, who now have very little connection to Iraq. "We talk about Yazidi babies who grew up in Germany, who know only German as a language, and they got deported to a village they don't know, to circumstances they don't know, back to a place where their parents are reminded of a genocide," the Bundestag member said.
The following is the full interview with the lawmaker:
Rudaw: Max, welcome. I'm happy that we are talking again.
Max Lucks: Thank you. Good to see you again.
Good to see you too. As I told you, you look younger.
Thank you.
So, you are part of a delegation. I want to know what is the purpose of the delegation.
The purpose of the delegation is to show that we will not let our allies in this region alone. We continue to work together with the region, with the government, but also with civil society. We care a lot about specific topics that are very close to our heart, like 10 years after the genocide on the Yazidi people, we advocate for them.
So far, how many days have you been here? I think two?
I arrived just yesterday.
You arrived yesterday, so this is the second day, and you had many meetings. I want to know about the result so far. How is it?
The result is that everyone wants the German engagement to continue, and we really want to continue our engagement in several areas. For me personally, it's also very important that we continue our engagement with our military presence here in the Kurdistan region. It's very important to support our allies, to educate Peshmerga, and to push for the reform of Peshmerga. But we also want to see some movements from the government here in the region, like the way that is strengthening media and press freedom, better human rights conditions also in the region, and to really give 100% every day to find a solution for the Sinjar region so that the Yazidi people can return.
You talked about human rights. I know that human rights is part of one of the topics that this delegation is focusing on. What is your assessment regarding all your meetings, especially today in Erbil with different political parties? Maybe you will also meet media and NGOs in the next days. How do you see human rights?
First of all, let me say that we see a better human rights situation in this region like in all over Iraq, and that is a really good sign. But we also want to see that journalists can work free, we want to see free elections, and human rights also include access to infrastructure such as health and work. We want to see opportunities, especially for young people in this region, to have a good and decent life here.
This delegation, so your visits will be within the Kurdistan region, or do you have plans to go to other areas too?
We will visit some other areas in central Iraq also.
In central Iraq, so the focus is not only the Kurdistan region?
My personal focus is the Kurdistan region, and it's very important for me to be here present in the region, and to show the region that we will not let them alone. But if you want to understand the fight against ISIS and the brave fight against ISIS that Peshmerga fought, you also have to go into the central Iraq area because many of these fights have happened there.
The Kurdistan region of Iraq's relation with Germany, has it remained consistent, or are there new developments in this relation?
The relation between Germany and the Kurdistan region is really a relation by heart. We have in Germany the biggest Yazidi diaspora in the entire world. We also have one of the biggest Kurdish diasporas in the entire world. So, we have many people-to-people connections. We have many politicians here in Erbil who studied for a while in Germany, for example, and returned to make politics here and become lawmakers for example. So, we have many of these connections that strengthen our relations, and also, we see that many people here in the region share our values when it comes to human rights, for example. That is good.
The German foreign minister is now from the Green Party, your political party. I want to know, what have you done as the Green Party to further develop the relations between Erbil and Berlin, even more?
We have so many concrete projects here in the region, in every aspect of working together, like education. When I think about the University of Duhok, we have such a good education for psychologists at Duhok University, for example. We have so many projects working together to tackle the climate crisis and create new jobs. We have projects that contribute to civil society and, of course, we also have projects which contribute to the victims of ISIS and give them a perspective, like the "Back to Life" project in many IDP camps in Duhok.
You talked about the Yazidis. The German Parliament, the Bundestag, defined the 2014 attack on the Yazidis as a genocide, and you personally had a very critical role in that legislation. So, what will Germany do for the Yazidis in Germany and also in the Kurdistan region of Iraq?
In Germany, we try to help them to live their culture and religion with dignity and freedom. We also try. In Germany, to help especially young Yazidis to reform their religion in a way so that women can be free, that they can choose freely who they want to marry or not marry. Here in the region, we want to advocate for the Yazidis because we see that many states in the region and many politicians use Yazidis for their own political reasons and aspects, like a playground. We have the biggest Yazidi diaspora as German citizens, so it's also a national topic for us that they are safe and that they have a future here in the region. Of course, we want to give them a future in Germany, and that is why I'm strongly advocating against deportations coming from our Social Democratic interior minister Nancy Faeser. But we also want to see a real future for the Yazidi people here in this region and in Sinjar, where their home is. That is why we are advocating towards everyone that they have to fulfill their obligations from the Sinjar agreement and that they have to do everything they can, within their power, to create peace.
How do you see Shingal/Sinjar?
How do I see it?
How do you see it? Of course, I know that you are aware of the situation there, and you monitor the situation in Sinjar closely.
On a personal level, I'm sad to see that Sinjar is not safe and that it is not rebuilt. It's not possible for many Yazidis to return back to Sinjar because there is no infrastructure, no safety, no peace, and not even a perspective to find work and to live economically. It is so sad to see that Yazidis, as victims of this terrible genocide from ISIS, still have to live in IDP camps that are neglected by the Iraqi government.
From a political perspective, I don't get how the Iraqi government can on one side, announce that they want to close the IDP camps while they don't fulfill their obligations from the Sinjar agreement on the other side. I want to see real movement there so that we can close the IDP camps one day, but with a perspective for the Yazidi survivors.
When it comes to the Sinjar agreement and the failure to fulfill that agreement on the ground, who do you blame?
I don't blame anyone because I don't believe that blaming helps, but I see who has responsibilities a lot and who does not have that much responsibilities. The most responsibilities from the Sinjar agreement lie with the central government of Iraq in Baghdad. There are also some responsibilities for the Kurdish regional government. Of course, there won't be peace in Sinjar as long as military operations from Turkey continue to create a climate of instability.
You talked about Yazidis who are being used by other political parties here in Iraq. That concern is very common here in Iraq and even in the Kurdistan region of Iraq. Do you have that concern too in Germany, as a member of the parliament who focuses on the Yazidis?
I don't have this concern because I'm a member of parliament since 2021 and I did not see any law passing our parliament unanimously but the recognition of the genocide of the Yazidi people did pass our parliament in Germany. That's why I don't believe that this is a party political playground in our country.
I'm not talking about your country. I'm talking about Iraq, where Yazidis are somehow used by other political parties. This concern is common in Iraq and many people talk about this, that this community is being used or utilized somehow for political goals of other political parties or other ethnic groups. Do you have that concern too?
I share this concern.
Also about the Yazidis, as you know, there are many Iraqis, I think it's about now about 30,000, something like that, asylum seekers whose applications were rejected by different courts in Germany. Part of those numbers are Yazidis. How do you see that?
So, when we made the recognition of the genocide passing the parliament, we said clearly that Yazidis have to have a way to seek asylum in Germany. Now we see that some of them really got deported. It's not a theoretical debate. We talk about Yazidi babies who grew up in Germany, who know only German as a language, and they got deported to a village they don't know, to circumstances they don't know, back to a place where their parents are reminded of a genocide. That is why I'm absolutely against deportations of Yazidi people. This is the responsibility of our interior minister in Germany, under the responsibility of the Social Democratic interior minister, Nancy Faeser, and she has to act. She really has to act to stop this. She wants to get the number of her deportations higher and higher, but while trying to get her numbers higher and higher, she really hits those who need our protection most, and this is not acceptable for me.
We talked to many Yazidis in Germany, and they are calling the federal government in Germany for negotiation about their cases. What can you do for them?
What we try is to convince our federal government and also our state and regional governments to make a deportation stop pass. That is one thing we should do. But there is also another thing that we can do as members of parliament. What I learned from being a politician is that being a politician is not only pointing out fingers to someone else. There is a thing that we could do as a parliament. We could pass our [own] law for Yazidis who seek asylum in Germany, and that's what we're trying to do. We hope that our coalition partners, the Social Democratic Party in parliament and the Liberal Party in parliament, will be convinced of that soon.
Soon, next October, the mandate from the Bundestag for the German troops to stay in Iraq and the Kurdistan region of Iraq will end. Are you and your political party, the Greens, in favor of extending that mandate for the German troops?
Let me be honest, we are absolutely in favor of continuing our work here and also our soldiers are. We really want to continue our work because our work is extremely sensful. We bring stability to the region, we can work together and educate Peshmerga. By the way, we as the entire world have to be thankful to Peshmerga that they defeated ISIS for all of us. But the question if we are able to continue our work here is not only in our hands. We need a way of continuing our work. I hope we can continue our work with our military presence here, such as now, but we don't know yet if this is possible because of the negotiations between Baghdad and the US.
The negotiation is taking place now between Baghdad and the USA regarding ending the task of the International Coalition against ISIS in Iraq. Germany is a very significant and main part of that international coalition. Is Germany aware about the content of that negotiation?
Germany is very aware of the importance of this negotiation, but not aware of every content of this negotiation because this is a negotiation between Baghdad and the US. But Germany is very aware in what we ask the central government of Iraq and Baghdad to do. We ask this government to really take a decision that is even in their own interest to stabilize this region, to bring sovereignty to this region and the entire state, and to continue with our military presence here in the anti-ISIS coalition.
So the presence, or let me put it this way, it relies on the result and the outcome of that negotiation between the USA and Iraq whether the German troops or German presence in Iraq militarily will remain or not?
It relies on international law, and from the perspective of international law, we need an invitation from Baghdad to be present here.
What does your evaluation say about the situation in Iraq? Do you think the situation in Iraq and the region is suitable for such a step to end the role of the International Coalition?
I really beg the central government of Iraq that we don't have to stop our work here because our work is extremely important to tackle ISIS. Of course, the military overall control of ISIS has gone, but ISIS is still a risk for security here in the region, in the Kurdistan region, in the whole Middle East, and in all of Iraq. That is why our military presence is crucial for Iraq, and it is also crucial for the Kurdistan region. I know that many people here in this region really appreciate that we educate Peshmerga, that we work together with them, that we push for reform that unites Peshmerga, and they want to see us continuing our work here. I want my soldiers to continue the great work they do here, especially because we want to show the Kurdish people that we will not let them alone after what happened in 2014 and 2015 and after what happened in the past decades. Just remember the genocide of Halabja. We really have to stand on the side of our Kurdish allies here in the region, and that is why I really hope that we find a solution that brings together international law and our engagement here.
Germany is also part of the Peshmerga reform plan. Your troops here are doing a great job regarding this. They are putting lots of effort, but are you satisfied with the results because this plan to unite the Peshmerga forces and make it a national force away from political affiliation?
Actually, we don't see that yet. Do you have any concerns about that conducting this plan and creating this unified Peshmerga is taking too long?
You know what's really interesting is that when I was in Iraq two years ago, everyone told me that Peshmerga should be united and everyone is giving 100% to unite Peshmerga. But what we see today is that Peshmerga is not united. It's good that all political main actors are willing to unite Peshmerga, but we really want to see results. We want to see a really united Peshmerga.
That you still do not see now?
We still don't see it.
So in the Bundestag, you also have a role regarding monitoring human rights in Turkey. How do you see human rights in Turkey?
I don't only have the role to monitor human rights in Turkey; I'm also the chairman of the German-Turkish parliamentary group, which is really a big honor for me, especially at my age and being new in the parliament. We say it's the second most important group for parliamentary exchanges after the US parliamentary group because we have so many people-to-people connections between Germany and Turkey. In my constituency, the city of Bochum, Turkish is maybe the second biggest mother tongue for people and for newborn children, and that is so good. That's why I can also understand a bit of Turkish because I grew up there. When I think about Turkey and speak about Turkey, I do not only see a government or political actors; I see many people and a brave civil society, especially many young people who are willing to rebuild a good democracy and a strong rule of law. It's sad to see that this rule of law in Turkey is under attack, for example, by not implementing decisions coming from the European Court of Human Rights. It's also sad to see that the Turkish military forces sometimes hurt international law with their operations in Syria for example and but also when it comes to the operations in Iraq, for example. These are some of the many things we have to discuss with Turkey.
How do you see the situation of the Kurds in Turkey?
How do I see the situation of the Kurds in Turkey, so the Kurds are a part of Turkey; they are citizens of Turkey. Istanbul is one of the biggest Kurdish cities in the world, by the way. There are so many Kurdish people, and no one would deny that Istanbul is a Kurdish city. Saying this, I believe that a democracy is as strong as it treats its minorities well, and the Kurds are a minority in Turkey. They are not treated very well in every aspect. Think about the political repressions against Selahattin Demirtas, as the voice for the Kurdish question in Turkey. There is really not enough access to have lessons and education, and also official procedures in their Kurdish mother language. I think these are steps Turkey should take on. I believe that Turkish democracy really needs a new start of a peace process about the Kurdish question. There won't be peace in the region and in Turkey without finding a solution for the Kurdish question and restarting a peace process. They should really do that and could benefit from it as a whole country, and as a country that is united in diversity.
But the current government in Turkey says that they have resolved the Kurdish issue in Turkey, and there's no more anything under the name Kurdish issue. This is what the president said over and over during the last year. What's your view on that?
I believe that the Kurdish issue is not solved for them because the Kurdish issue is one of the reasons why Selahattin Demirtas, an oppositional politician, is still in prison. The Kurdish issue is not solved as long as there is a military conflict between the YPG forces and the Turkish military in Northern Syria. This conflict takes place every day, and as long as it continues, the issue and the question are not solved. It has to be solved with talks like this, at the table, not on the battleground with weapons.
Now the fight between the Turkish military and the PKK is in the Kurdistan region of Iraq, within Iraq's international borders. Turkey is a member of NATO, and Germany is also a member of NATO. How do you see this operation?
I am a politician from the Green Party and the foreign minister from my party as you said, I see only one foreign minister from all NATO countries who said loud and clear in Turkey, in Istanbul in a press meeting with the Turkish foreign minister, that the way the Turkish military forces act in Syria and Iraq is not allowed by international law. That was a very strong statement and that is our position. We are not against fighting terrorism, but we are against military operations that threaten civilians, kill civilians, destabilize a whole region, and the homes of the Yazidis, by the way.
You also monitor Iran..
Yes, I am reporter for the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe for Iran.
Yes, there's a new president in Iran, Masoud Pezeshkian. Do you think that we will see any change in Iran's foreign policy?
No, I don't believe that. I don't trust that government. I don't trust the elections allowed by the so-called government of Iran. I think this regime in Iran, doesn't have the backing of the majority of its people. This regime of Iran has no good will in the region. Look at the terrible situation of people in Gaza, suffering every day, men, women, and children who are innocent are dead. Who benefits from this suffering? The regime of Iran benefits from this suffering because many people are looking away from them. That's why they finance the way towards this suffering. This regime in Iran does not want anything in the region besides getting money and power for themselves, and that's a huge problem. That's why we have to support the Iranian people and also the Kurdish people from Iran.
Bold statement from you.
Isn’t it more bold for the Iranian people and also from the Kurdish people in Iran to go out on the streets against this regime.
Do you anticipate any move from the regime in Iran and the current government when it comes to the Kurdish issue, at least in the next few years?
I expect honestly nothing that is a good step for decent human beings from this regime.
If this is your position, what's your assessment of other European countries willing to start negotiations with Iran and somehow accept Iran as part of the international community? They think the best way to deal with Iran and resolve issues internally and regionally is to negotiate with Iran as any other state.
This is one of the most important questions because, as I mentioned, I'm the rapporteur for the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe for the situation in Iran. What I see and what really threatens me is that the strategy of the European Union and NATO towards Iran is not common enough. We allow the regime of Iran to play with us, partly just look at the hostages held by this regime. There is not a common strategy coming from Europe about different national citizens from our states. That's why we really need to find a common strategy, a common approach where we can advocate for our citizens held as hostages, and where we are able to act against this regime in the sense of the majority of the brave people of Iran.
About Rojava, Northeast Syria, the areas where the Kurds reside—how do you see the situation there, especially the human rights situation and freedom of media in the administration controlled by the PYD?
The human rights situation there is not perfect and maybe it's also far from perfect, looking at reports from Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International. The children, for example, were forced to serve in the military forces, this is not acceptable from any human rights perspective. But of course, in this region, you have to compare human rights situations to other regions. Compared to regions in Syria controlled by Assad or controlled by the allies of the Turkish military forces, such as Islamist groups, the human rights situation in the Kurdish-controlled northern Syria region is better.
In your opinion, what should Germany and the international community do to secure the rights of the Kurds in the future of Syria?
We have to find, first of all, a common approach toward Syria—a common European approach towards Syria. Because if you look at Syria right now and what we did there, we failed with our goals. Because one of our goals should be to secure the Kurdish population of Syria. I think one key to this is to work together with the Kurdish authorities in northern Syria. We need to find a way for our Turkish NATO allies to stop their military operations in Syria, that is especially important to protect the Kurdish minorities. There are many reports about human rights violations against Kurdish people coming from the allies of the Turkish military forces, and this is not acceptable. We should mention this to Turkey more steadily and more loudly.
How do you see efforts from different countries to normalize relations with the Assad regime? Do you support that?
The Assad regime is one of the most brutal regimes, we have in the entire world, and that is why I'm not convinced of normalizing relations with the Assad regime. But, we have to see that our policy approach toward Syria did not work as we wanted it to. One of the reasons for this is Russia's influence and their support for Assad. That is why I really believe we need to have negotiations in the European Union about a new approach for Syria now.
Max, thank you very much. It was a pleasure to have this conversation with you. Welcome to Kurdistan and Erbil again, and hope to see you here more frequently.
It's very good to be in Erbil. Thank you for having me.
