Germany has responsibilities, concerns for number of asylum seekers: Official

The following is the transcript of Frank Schwabe’s interview with Rudaw.

Rudaw: You just came back from Shingal (Sinjar). Is this your first visit to Shingal? I just want to ask, what is your impression? What have you seen there?

Commissioner Schwabe: The impression is that I saw different things. On the one hand, I saw some people who said, "OK, the security situation is quite better." I saw some houses rebuilt, some public spaces, schools, and so forth. But for sure, I saw the destruction as well in the capital. A lot is still very destroyed. I met young people who said they are quite hopeless and do not see a future in the region. They want to go abroad, mainly to Germany.

For sure, it is a concern. It is a double concern. You know, I deal with the question of freedom of religion worldwide, and for sure, I see that when you are not present in the country w  here you are historically, you are in the diaspora. You can live there, but it is difficult to keep the traditions. The religion is quite concerned from this side. Although Germany welcomed many people who suffered in the genocide, we are not prepared to welcome all the people from all over Iraq, because we have a very critical internal debate in Germany about migration as well.

It is been ten years since the genocide. You have seen the destruction in Shingal. But, you know, in Europe, politicians want to talk about and Iraqi politicians want the Yazidis return to their stronghold, which is Shingal. Based on what you have seen today, do you think the situation in Shingal is quite good for all those people in the camps to go back and live there?

For sure, it is not good enough. We met some people who went back from the camps - a few. And I know that there is an ongoing debate. Some people who went back to Sinjar are now back in the camps because they see that it is not easy to live there, and maybe it is impossible to live there. So, I saw some good things, but in general, 10 years after the genocide, we should see a much better situation. When I see all the destruction in Sinjar in Shingal city, it is clear that a lot of people will not go back. So I really urge everyone, especially the governments who are responsible, the Iraqi government. We can help, but we cannot take the place of the government of Iraq in rebuilding. Without housing, people will not go back. This is an Iraqi matter, but it is also a matter of concern for Germany because the young people you met today who said they have no hope and want to go to Germany mean that this is a concern for you.

After you go back, you will report to the government about what you have seen and suggest actions. What actions do you suggest to your government about this matter?

It is not just about concerns, it concerns as well, but it is a kind of responsibility as well. If you have such a big number of Yazidi people in Germany, we have found out that each person we met today has some kind of relatives or friends in Germany. It is a kind of responsibility, but it is a concern, as well, that maybe hundreds of thousands of people want to come to Germany. This is very difficult in the internal debate in Germany. 

What I would recommend is to proceed with our diplomatic efforts with the central government in Iraq and the regional government in Kurdistan to ask them to improve the situation on each thing: security, housing, the possibility to work in agriculture, or how soever. At the same time, we have some programs. I am here to say that we will invest 15 million Euros more, which can build 260 new houses and improve the water situation a little bit. On the other hand, we have to understand the situation in Germany and what brings people to come to Germany and to migrate. 

We have a debate about bringing Yazidi people back from Germany and I know there are a lot of concerns here … Those who came in the genocide time until 2017, they are secure in Germany; they will stay. Others we will try to keep in the country, but if people decide to come today, they will go through normal asylum procedures. Since the situation is not like in 2015 or 2016 anymore, a lot people will not get the allowance to stay in Germany. Individual cases , yes, where you had trauma, such as women and girls who were raped, they have a chance, but in general, people will not get asylum. We have to ask people not to come; and for Germany, we have to inform them about it; they need a kind of campaign that people really understand the internal situation in Germany.

For a solution, there is the Shingal agreement. Do you still think that this agreement and its implementation are solutions for Shingal based on what you have seen?


I know that there is a lot of criticism from the people because they say we were not part of this agreement. On the other hand, this is the only thing we have in our hand, so there is a kind of agreement between Baghdad and Erbil about it. I think we have to insist that the two governments do everything to improve.

I understand the difficult situation here in the country; it is not easy with a lot of regional conflict. At the end, to survive, when I go to Baghdad, they say the solution is in Kurdistan. When I am here, they say the solution is in Baghdad. So this is kind of a game to say the other one is responsible. This will not work at the end.

And again, Germany has an interest. We are here with a diplomatic voice because we speak with independent countries or regional governments, but for sure our interest is that we find a solution so that people see the future here in the region and not in Germany. Even the UN tried to implement that agreement and the UN was part of that agreement, but yet it has not been implemented after years.

Do you think that, talking to Iraqi officials and Kurdish officials too, this agreement somehow was born dead?

I am not here to decide at the end if it will work or not. We see that it doesn't work today and from the Yazidi perspective, they do not have hope. This is what I saw. They say we were not part of it and a lot of things are not OK in the agreement, and we will not see that it will work finally. Something they ask very much for is to have a kind of security organized by Yazidi people because they say, OK, we see all the soldiers and the policemen around and the security situation today is OK, but we do not trust that in a situation of a new confrontation we are secure. We are just secure when we see that we have our own forces from our own people, and this is very, very necessary to do.

In Germany, I was reading reports about Yazidi people who applied for asylum. Their cases in the courts were rejected, and those people say that our case - we are Yazidis and already the one state recognized the ISIS attack on Yazidis as genocide - and they want the government to negotiate with them. Is the federal government in Germany taking this into consideration - the case of Yazidi asylum seekers now in Germany whose cases are rejected by the court?

At the end, you know the procedure is that first of all, the government decides - not alone, not the government, not ministries. We have a special agency to deal with this question, and then it goes to the court. And then you just have the right of pardoning or something at the end. I have a lot of cases where I try to support people because it would be very hard to push them away from Germany. But what we have to understand is that this decision from the government - a very important decision from the government where we say we want to see people safe all over the world and in Germany - doesn't mean that you do not go through individual cases. This is a system in Germany, and we cannot say we take Yazidi people out of the procedures. This is not in the law.

If we would start it, where would we end? Then Christians in the region would ask me as well why we do it for Yazidis and not for Christians. And we have people from all over the world - Rohingya in Myanmar - they will say, why do not we have a special status for Rohingya? So this will not be the solution. The situation is all the people who came between 2014 and 2017 stay in Germany forever if they want. And then from then, we saw individual cases and the number of people who are rejected is growing because Germany says, OK, the situation is not fine. It is still bad, but it is not a situation of genocide where it is not possible to live anymore here.

If you compare it with situations all over the world - let us say in Sudan or wherever - if you give the possibility to stay for everyone who comes to Germany, then we have to speak about other countries as well, and we are not able to deal with such a high number of refugees.

Will they be deported?

At the end, yes. At the end, yes. If people, and I say today very clearly to them, if today or tomorrow you decide to go to Germany and you do not have an individual case - again, if you have a trauma - if they free the women, 2,600 or 2,700 were still somewhere under the control of terrorists. If they free them, for sure, they would have an opportunity to come to Germany, maybe to go to a hospital or whatever and to stay. But people will live here under bad living conditions, but not in the danger of genocide or whatever killing. They will go through normal procedures, and I think most of them will not have the right to stay, and they will be deported, yes.

Based on your evaluation, do you consider the Yazidi community in Iraq safe and free?

No, for sure not. I fully understand that people feel they live in a society where many do not welcome them. There are rumors about their behavior, way of living, and so forth. But staying in Germany or coming to Germany means that you have a very direct situation where you are fleeing from killing or raping. If you do not have this individual case, even when the situation is bad in the country, you will not have the right to asylum. We need the same standards for everyone. We cannot say that one group deserves more than another

Yazidis live in Iraq, but also exist in Turkey and other countries too. How do you evaluate the situation of Yazidis in Turkey?

It is similar. Last year, Turkey had the third biggest number of refugees coming from there. They wanted to flee from Erdoğan’s government. Many Yazidis are among them, but most do not get asylum. The political situation is very bad. If you have a specific case where you criticize the government or face the risk of imprisonment or court and you flee to Germany, you may have a chance to stay in Germany. However, just claiming a general danger is not enough today.

You have seen Shingal. You will meet policymakers, leaders, and officials in the Kurdistan Region. When you meet leaders and officials, what is your main question to them after what you have seen?

My main question is: What are the next plans to do everything to better the situation for Yazidi people, and how would you implement agreements? How would you find compromises with Baghdad? I know I do it in a very difficult political situation where there are enough problems between Baghdad and Erbil. I am very aware of it, but on the other hand, I can make sure that Germany is very interested, and we really try to be a good partner - not saying what someone has to do. We cannot do it. No one comes to Germany to say, “You have to do this and this.” But maybe we have some recommendations. We can say, “Let us do it together. We can support you there and there.” What is not very appropriate is when I go to one capital and they say the others are to blame. This is a game sometimes. I understand it - politics, I am a politician enough - but for sure, this is something where I say, "Come on, please say what you can do and not what you expect from others.

Politics, but maybe politics in the Middle East, work kind of differently compared to Europe. Regarding religious freedom in general in Iraq, how do you see it? Yazidis are one of your focuses and you are the federal commissioner for freedom of religion or belief, how do you see Iraq?

I was here last year already and I met all of the different groups, even some Jewish people - I think there are just few - Mandans, Zorostrians, so Assyrians, all of them, for sure Christians. It is very impressive to meet all of them. When I am here, I am always thinking about the Bible -as I am a Christian - and about history. It is so interesting because the civilization grew up from here. There is a danger that in this time we can lose it. I met a lot of Christians as well; They say, "OK, we do not see that if things do not change, we do not see a future for us." For them personally maybe, but I understand that in Mosul we have not even 70 families now from 50,000 Christians before. And now, I do not see them now going back in this situation. On paper, I see that religious freedom is there in Iraq, but in reality, I have to say it is difficult. With what the country is doing, it looks like it is not enough because it looks like the really religious minorities are up to leaving the country. A few will stay, but it is not enough to have a really living tradition. I think this is a very big value of this country. I am really very impressed, but I think the world and Iraq as well should have an interest in keeping this in the country. 

Before 2003, there were reports and estimations that the number of the Christian community in Iraq was about 1.5 million people. Now, after two decades with population growth, it is estimated that there are only 300,000 Christians living in Iraq. Mostly, like 90 percent of them live in the Kurdistan Region of Iraq. Do you think that even the Christians in Iraq are under threat and their existence?

For sure. It is very similar at the end to the Yazidi people. I meet a lot of people who are very often traveling between Iraq and Germany. This is fine, but I see more and more people who try to find their future all over the world, but a lot of them, especially young people, are in Germany as well. Elderly people say, "OK, no we have stayed here for 60 years, 70 years. We had to suffer sometimes. We will stay here." But young people, who have their whole life before them when they are 20, 23, 24, 25, say, "OK, to keep the tradition and the religion is very nice, and at the end, you can keep it only really in the area, in the country where you come from." For sure, you have freedom of religion in Germany. You can build your own church. I went to church - Syrian Orthodox and Assyrian churches; we have them. But it is nothing in comparison when you see these kinds of buildings here, this kind of tradition. So yes, I am concerned that we will lose this religion in the region as well

The region where it started and all the history is here too. I know it is sad to hear that. These problems existed before, but after ISIS, these problems became bigger and bigger, and they are still problems - unsolved. Do you still see ISIS in this region as a threat?

Yes. When I speak with Christians and Yazidi people, they tell me that it was difficult before as well and it was a kind of environment in which ISIS could grow. Now we have beaten them all together militarily, but for sure, the ideas are still there. People are still there, demobilized at this time, but the ideas are still there. Maybe you know that there was a murder a few days ago in Germany, and it looks like it was sent by ISIS at the end. So, the ideas are still there, and we have to do everything to keep them under control.

At the end of October, the mandate from the German federal parliament for the German troops in Iraq will end. Is there a political will from the government and in the parliament to extend that mandate for another year?

I hear the discussions here in Iraq about it, and I understand that the government wants to limit the influence from outside on one hand. On the other hand, I think we need that kind of stabilization, and I think Germany is really a country that tries to take responsibility without predicting which direction the country should go. We have an interest, we discuss with each other, and for sure, Germany is prepared to proceed and to take all the responsibilities they can in this country. 

Is Iraq willing to accept that? 

I am not sure - it is not a part of the talks I have here now.

But in Germany, is there a will to extend that mandate?

Yes, in Germany, for sure, we would like to do it.

You talked about the attack in Solingen, the German city. The report says that this person was sent by ISIS. What is the government in Germany doing to deal with extremism in Germany?

It is a good question. It is a similar debate we have all over the world, and we have it here as well. We have a lot of people who spread bad ideas into people’s brains, and we have a lot of hate speech as well. Each and everywhere, we have a law meanwhile against hate speech in Germany, but it looks like that anyhow, it can grow. What we are discussing is how we can have more influence on radicalization. We closed one mosque that was under the influence of Iran very much in Germany, but in the end, we did not find the answer. On the one hand, we are a country of human rights and freedom where you can express yourself. We do not limit people to express themselves. On the other hand, we do not want to have hate speech and people who motivate others to commit crimes.

Is not it hard to distinguish between freedom of speech and hate speech or spreading extremism for you in Germany?

It is hard all over the world. We have some laws against hate speech; you can go to court, but it is not an easy procedure. The question is if social media is able or willing to support us. Like Mr. Musk with X works differently than Twitter did before. With Twitter, it was easier to go against hate speech, but it is a balance. It is always not very easy because there are some countries where I go and criticize that people cannot speak freely, and then they take the German anti-hate speech law as an example to say, “Look, you are limited as well.” So, it is difficult to decide what is allowed, what is really hate speech, and what is bringing people against each other. It is not a very easy thing, and we are discussing it. Maybe with rising attacks, we will be more clear and more harsh on some rules.

Do you have a concern with the policy that Elon Musk is implementing with Twitter’s boundaries? Is it a concern for you that it would be used to spread hate speech in Germany and extremism?

For sure, it is a concern. It is not just hate speech; it is a question of fake news as well. If you see what he even himself shared - what kind of nonsense, to be honest, sometimes very strange information. He has the monopoly, in a way, on information all over the world. So many people use X, I myself as well. We always have a debate in Germany if you should use it anymore or not, but at the end, you are quite dependent because you do not have very many other alternatives to inform yourself and to inform people, especially all over the world. I use other social media in my constituency at home, but if I want to be in contact with people abroad in other countries, there is not really an alternative to X.

What will the government do about this? For example, last week Brazil decided to ban X completely. I think maybe this is not possible or maybe this is not the policy of the government in Germany, but this is also difficult. How will you deal with it?

We are at the beginning of the debate. It is more of a philosophical discussion today. We are far away from taking decisions based on the law - if we want to change something we need a law. But we know what is a danger as well. I know on Telegram where you have more bad things, and fake news is used by people who are using it to work against regimes and dictatorships as well. So it is used on both sides, and we do not have a clear position. But we are discussing it, as we have elections next year and we are afraid of some very bad campaigns even financed and organized by campaigns who would not want to have it very good with us.

Coming back to ISIS, do you consider ISIS to be a threat not only in this region, but in your country? Do you think ISIS and its ideology, it has grown inside Europe and Germany, and not only in this region alone?

It is not just now, it was already before. We had al-Qaeda and others as well. We had attacks in Germany before as well. If it is growing, yes. We have had some “caliphate” demonstrations in Germany as well with maybe 1,000 people supporting it - we saw it on the street but we do not see as many attacks maybe 10 or 12 years ago, but still we are somehow astonished that we still had this attack because people in Germany thought, “OK. Where is ISIS? We do not see them anymore. We do not see the flags anymore in the region. So they are beaten already.” Now, we have to learn what you know already, the idea the ideology is still there , and there are structures somewhere as well.

A thousand people demonstrated calling for a “caliphate” in Germany. OK, it is freedom of speech, but do you have a vision that if such a protest takes place in Baghdad or Damascus, the capitals of two countries where ISIS emerged, how will the government deal with it?

I have an imagination. I understand the countries have a lot of experiences in dealing with extremism, and they have tried to prevent it - We learn in our history that if we want to be a free society, we will cede the possibility to demonstrate, but we have a discussion about it as well and we did not allow everything. There were police restrictions that they could not show some flags or something. So, there were restrictions as well, but we are in an ongoing debate and maybe we just start to understand the situation and the challenge we have. 

You do not see flags, but the ideas are there. It is a philosophical debate, actually. After the attack in Germany, we see more politicians in Germany calling for the deportation of immigrants, especially to Syria. They say that if there are parts of Syria where it is stable and safe, we should be allowed to deport people. Is the government taking this into consideration after the recent attack?

The first condition to deport people is to know where you bring them. Maybe I do not want to go too much into detail with Iraq, but if there is no flight, then you cannot deport people. If you have no contact with the Syrian regime government or with the one in Afghanistan, then it is difficult, just for procedural reasons, to do so. What we did now is that we brought back some 28 people who committed crimes to Afghanistan with the help of other countries. This is what happened. Maybe in the future, we will do it with Syrians as well. 

But if people are already in Germany, it is very difficult to deport them. You can do it with some thousands of people each year, but the capacity is not really much bigger. Because of this, we discuss other rules. We discuss if asylum seekers have to apply for asylum not in Europe but maybe in a country outside Europe, and only if they get asylum there, they are allowed to come to Europe and, at the end, to Germany. I think this will be more productive in the end than deporting people. 

But again, if people come to Germany, they have to know that if there is not a clear reason for asylum, just saying "I am from a country where the situation is bad" is not enough. Because if we would accept this, we would have to accept people from 50 countries all over the world, and this is not possible.

Your political party, the Social Democratic Party (SPD), in the recent election, we see the far right are gaining more votes in a region where they never had those votes since World War II. This is news all over the world. Do you think the policies you have in place now in Germany are not working and are taking away votes from you - it is not functional?

You know, I do not like to see rising right populism and right extremism. I do not like it, but the reason is those - 

But some people who voted for you are not voting for you anymore. So you should do something about it. Do you think that the policies you had in the recent 10 years, for example, dealing with migration - which is one of the rhetorics of the far right - and dealing with the problems in this region of the world are not functional anymore? You have the signs on the ground, facts.

So the question is, is migration driving this and is pushing right populism? But I am very sure that even if there were no migration to Germany and the world was without migration - and we need migration. If there were not migration in the past, we would have economic problems to face. If there were to be no migration, we would still see a rise in right populism and left populism, to be honest, in a way as well. Why? Because people feel more insecure in society. The society was very much structured before. You had not so many opportunities, but you had less risk. 

I could speak at length - I think you do not want it - about my history. I come from a coal mining family. My father was a coal miner, and if I were five years younger, I would have become a coal miner too, because everyone in my generation or five years before became a coal miner. It was hard work, but it was very clear: if you grew up where you were, you went to coal mining, you married someone from the next street, you had children, and it was fine. I have more opportunities now, but you have more risk as well. You do not know what happens with your job or how it works with your pension system. This makes people insecure, and this, combined with migration where people come from other parts of the world and bring some other risks and challenges, makes people insecure. In the past, they knew what to vote for: social democrats in industrialized regions, Christian democrats in more rural regions. 

Today, it is very open. People decide in different ways. At the end, I saw the title in Germany - AfD [Alternative for Germany] was successful. Yes, it was the biggest party in two of the 16 so-called Bundesländer [states] in Germany, in two quite small ones, and they have 30-plus, but they will not be able to build the government. So I am concerned, but on the other hand, we should not give the impression that everything is lost. We have a similar situation in the Netherlands and Austria. Now we have elections in Italy and France. Nothing I like, but I think it is a little bit of a result of this new insecurity in a world of new chances. We have to fight against it. We have to deal with it. We have to speak with people that it is not the right decision to go this way. It is a reality now.

Do you agree that these domestic problems in Germany and politics, but are also related to this region in places like Iraq and Syria. Do you think the actions taken by your government have made problems for you in your country today - like Shingal? Everything with Middle East wars - even Germany supported Saddam Hussein, German companies sold chemicals to him. And Kurds were bombed with those chemicals.  Do you think these actions have led to or contributed to some of the problems you deal with in your country today?

Not directly, I would say, although for sure it was wrong. I am someone who tried to implement laws in Germany that companies take responsibility for their work abroad, for their trade abroad. We pay a little bit of the price that we were in a phase of migration when we had civil wars everywhere. We were quite open to it. We allowed people to come. For sure, in this situation, a lot of very good people came. The people fleeing from ISIS came to Germany, but some people, a few with the ideology of ISIS, came as well. This is really not a very easy situation now. The strange thing is that those people who are against migration are also against us working abroad with the possibilities we have. 

I think we have a big interest in a stable region because if not, people will move. We can build the biggest walls, but people will eventually be able to come. So this is one mission as well. I am here to support Yazidi people, Christians, the whole country, and other minorities. But for sure, I will bring back the information to Germany as well to say let us not stop caring and dealing with other parts of the world. We should not do what maybe Mr. Trump wanted to do in the United States - to say we look just into our country, we deal with our problems in the country, and we do not care what happens outside. 

I think German people, and people in the world, if no one understands that walls are not the solution, German people understand … Thank you very much Mr. Frank Schwabe for this opportunity. It was a pleasure. 

Thank you very much.

Updated at 5:20pm with transcript.